Welcome to mind your own marketing business podcast, where we explore marketing trends and technology, gaining insider knowledge from the industry's best, you're just proud to present mind your own marketing business with host Joe Barsness.

  Thanks for joining us on the Mind Your Own Marketing Business Podcast. I'm Joe Barsanis from Web and Software Development Team Fjord, and today in our show, we'll be talking with Scott Markman, the President at Monogram Group. Welcome to the show, Scott.

Thanks for having me on Joe, really appreciate it.

Absolutely excited to do this. We are here at the end of November 2024.

If you are listening in the future, uh, as we start, as we might reference some holidays, Thanksgiving is tomorrow, et cetera, et cetera. Snow is flying in Minneapolis. I'm not sure what the weather's like in in Chicago, Scott, but uh, it's getting to be wintertime here

Yeah, it dropped this week. It's around 40 here, which is of course, very warm by Minneapolis standards, but  it had been unusually warm in the fall for,  know, about six weeks, but that's over with. And, you know, I'm sure in two weeks, 40 will seem like, you know, Florida time. Yeah.

Exactly exactly and we had that same much like crazy nice warm fall And now my the pond in my backyard just froze last night that not that you can skate on it yet But we will be looking for those temperatures to drop a little bit more and start playing some hockey out there.

I was going to say, what are the two most magic words in, uh, words in Minnesota pond and hockey, right? Isn't

Amen  Amen, amen. I like it. I like it. You know what I you know, it takes one to know one I guess, um, You know Chicago you get a little bit of weather that can sometimes freeze some ice outside, but it usually doesn't last that long

have something very large to our east called Lake Michigan, and

That's true.

it does not solid freeze over. That's impossible, like,

Yeah

biological or, you know, like, uh, physically impossible, but there's big chunks of ice in that thing in January, trust me.

All right, so scott, um much like many of my episodes here I Getting to know people who are leading agencies and marketing positions usually have an interesting coming of age Uh, experience. And so I'd love to hear about, uh, where you got your start in advertising and, and, and how the monogram group came to be, uh, and kind of what the monogram, not the monogram group, but monogram group is and does.

Oh, wow. Congrats. Oh.

I loved logos,  sports, those airline logos, you know, whatever. I was just fascinated by it. I can't tell you why.  And, um, when it came time to thinking about college and, you know, a career and these things, I knew what I didn't want to do. I didn't want to be a doctor. I didn't want to be a lawyer.  want to, you know, go into finance, whatever. My parents had a small business in Baltimore where I was raised, you know, modestly successful little business. And so I kind of grew up in the entrepreneurial kind of mindset framework as a kid. Uh, my sister and I used to, you know, go to school.

Call the business a third child.  and so, so, you know, it was just business and small business was just a part of my upbringing and I felt as though at some point, you know, details to come, I was going to have my own business, but I, you know, wasn't sure.  um, I went to, uh, Washington university in St.

Louis,  and I got a BFA in design.  So, um, you know, the beautiful thing about Wash U was it had, you know, great academics and a business school. I took some business classes, but I got an art major, you know, and a focus in design. So, for me, it was a great, uh, combination.  um, you know, I was somebody else's designer for about 9 years.

I moved to Chicago in 1988 for a job.  And, um, that wasn't a great marriage. Um, it lasted about 11 months and 59,  know, minutes kind of metaphorically.  Um, and so I  wasn't sure what I was going to do next. And, and the answer was after a couple of months of thought was to hang my shingle.  shingle and give it a go.

Um, and, and that was the gen one 1990 sort of mirogram group. So I just am finishing year 35.  So, you know, yes. See the gray hair for those that are watching.  Um,  so, um, for the first, about seven years, we were a design firm. That's what I knew I could sell and do design and, you know, team and so on.  And, um, A couple of folks that were college friends that became my partners started to moonlight for me as I got gigs that needed their skills and whatnot.  so, um,  one partner, Harold Woodridge, who was a creative director of big, uh, Michigan Avenue agencies and Jackie short, who was a pre senior market research professional in corporate America.  were doing side hustles for me for about.  years off and on here and there before, you know, they joined.  Harold joined as a partner in 2002, Jackie, 2006.  So  we, in 1998 pivoted to become more of a mainstream ad agent, small ad agency, and in the world of marketing services, there are. Micro slices and graph designs over here and advertising and sort of over there and we pivoted to become more of a ad agency for a certain set of reasons.

Biggest of which was we're getting swings at ad campaigns at accounts and we were winning them and there was more money and I thought more opportunity  then when Jackie joined 2006. Um, and she brought a corporate research and strategy and positioning and all that stuff to the table again. It was well, what is the intersection of these three overlapping skills and expertises?  And the answer is brand. So we pivoted again in 2006 to what we are today, the last three years. You know, 18 years.  So we've been a brand consultancy agency for about 18 years.  Um, now it, you know, it had an impact on the kind of expertise and services and deliverables that we sold. Our positioning, who we, who we competed against and what we said to clients and prospects we could do for them.

And so it was a meaningful change,  but, um, you know, that's what I've been doing the last, you know, half of my career and love it. And. You know, it's like the best job in the world.

Awesome. That is so cool. In 35 years. I mean, and, and you did it, it sounded like one year in potentially corporate America or as a job and then off on your own immediately.

Well, I have never worked. I've never worked in corporate America. The largest place I worked as an employee of somebody else's 45 people.

Got it.

So for better or for worse, I have never worked in a big company. Now, you know, for the most part, I think that's probably a good thing. Having said that there are  certain experiences and points of view and.

Whatever that, you know, Jackie and Harold worked in big corporations. I mean, Harold worked, you know, global agencies and Jackie worked at Ameritech, you know, one of the baby bells, I mean, gigantic company. So they brought that perspective and experience to

Sure.

not only internally for us, but in terms of how we can understand our client organizations  in a way that I couldn't.

Yeah, absolutely. I, I, I think there's, I mean, there's always  Good in having different perspective and experiences as well

Yeah, that's a, it's important, um, aspect to the how and why we do what we do. You know, you know, my colleague Dan Bauer, who I've known for 30 years and we've worked together all in all for 20  and, you know, Dan worked in corporate America and, and that's a big, You know, and, and can understand and view things through that lens in a way that I, I can't,  um, you know, he, he went to Harvard business school.

I didn't, I know, you know, I have business background, but I didn't get my MBA. So we understand certain things. And he's a, you know, meaningful contributor to what we do the last seven or eight years. And, and so we, we, uh, seek and, and a little bit sort of, uh, elevate, uh, Um, uh, different opinions,  experiences and perspectives, because in the work that we do, that's invaluable. You can't just have, you know, a narrow lane,  you know, cause we walk into messy unresolved  situations where there is no right answer. And we need, it's our job to  present findings, make recommendations that have may have multiple options and help the client decide upon the right You know, door number one versus number three and then go build the stuff that takes it to market. But we live in a world of gray, gray and kind of no right answer.

Yeah. Makes sense. And, and, and speaking of no right answer, my  favorite question and answer is almost always with marketing professionals and agency folks is what is the coolest, most interesting, fun, adventurous thing that you've gotten to do as part of your career?

I'm going to give you an answer that I promise you, I could give you a thousand tries. You would never guess.  Um, we did something for nine years that at the time nobody else had done and very few even today have done.  Um, we  set out to create a unique sort of groundbreaking practice and applying our skills  companies in China that  let's say, either national brands being Chinese market brands or were private label for other, you know, Western companies that wanted to,  You know,  climb the, the, the ladder to being branded  and then coming to the West,  um, there's certain set of reasons why I'm not going to get into that.

But, you know, I hired a Chinese national and come to Chicago for his MBA and John and I sort of set about to start something from scratch. I did it for 9 years  and we ended up picking, you Up, um, I think a dozen clients in nine years. It wasn't all that we're doing is about a

Sure.

but you know, I made nine trips to China.

I've spent 20 weeks of my life in China. I've been to 15 cities. I presented one brand multiple times. I've spoken in front of 300 people for two and a half hours by myself  and getting to know  the country of China, Chinese people, Chinese culture, Chinese business culture.  then that's all before I was, for what I was hired to do,  um, was you wanna talk about beer stories?

That was  a multi chapter beer story of a lifetime that virtually nobody else in America can replicate.

Oh, so cool to have that's an interesting way to have that connection and and and bringing clients at the same time experience travel and teaching and Learning and culture and all of that. That's a and china's not an easy culture to pick up on either.

And, and admittedly, you know, I, I spent about six months doing homework on this before I decided to pull the trigger and, you know, made my first trip to China in June of 2007.  Um, but you know, prior to that, I, I had no past experience with China. So it is a, like, it's like  to, you know, swim in the Pacific and then you're going to end up in China. And, and you know, there's, there's no preparation for it. If, you know, there are a lot of people that, you know, in international business, they go to China and do business with Chinese for a living gobs of people in America that do that. I had none of that.  And so it was, it was a little bit of flying the plane as I built it.

Love it Love it.  All right. I want to jump into uh, some of the the things that you've been working on for years and oftentimes I want to dive into just kind of a more of a um You I don't know quite what the right word is, theoretical or understanding and brand is one of those things that even to myself, you know, we support a lot of brand and marketing and all of that, but myself being more on the technology side, brand is a little bit of a mystery.

And I know through kind of prepping with you, one of the things that came up is like brand and logo are not the same thing. Can you jump into what that means to you? And what it means to other people who are, uh, you know, on the cusp of this industry, or maybe need to rebrand a company and what that truly means.

Yep. 100%.

time, and that's an opportunity for us because even what is brand. Let alone what your brand ought to be or how to change all that invented, which is  I have a job.  I know walking in. That the level of knowledge, experience, past history, you know, consensus is very poor on client organizations.  So that's number one. Number two,  way we define brand, and again, we're not the only ones, it's not unique, but I'm just saying, you know,  our AC perspective is that brand is  DNA.  Brand is the everything.  And it is systemic, it is cultural, it's left, it's right, it's front, it's behind, it's above,  and every aspect of an organization, you know, think of a 200 million company that makes industrial widgets, right? we do a lot of work in middle market B2B.  Um, so what does brand a company like that?

You know, many people may say, well, they don't sell to consumers. Uh, okay. There are bazillions of companies that don't sell to consumers. That's only one side of, of the world of brand.  Maybe one of three, there's not for profits. There's business to business and there's a consumer retail, right?  Um, we all know consumer retail due to our, you know, at home lives, right. Starbucks and Nike and Neiman Marcus and you know, whatever.  but the same principles  you, uh, when you're, you know, your personal life may experience in brand apply to.  subsector business to business or not for profit brand is brand because brand comes from human behavior and how we.  Uh, are exposed to information,  understand information,  you know, prioritize, or a little bit choose, you know, a brand why you repeatedly, you know, loyalty, you go back to that brand and repeat purchase.  then even you share information. Hey, Joe. You should try this brand. So it starts with human behavior that is both individual and collective, right? Because certain amount of brand is, is mass. It's how do you share information? How do organizations make decisions? It's not just that person. It's often by committee.  you've got, you've got human psychology, human behavior at the foundation of what, why do brands exist? I mean, brands are not, they don't exist for no reason. They exist because We gather a lot of information as human beings, and we need to organize it and decide upon it and remember it and put it away and all of these things for future reference.  that's number one. Number two,  brand really is a balance of intellectual and emotional, right? You gather information, you organize it, you prioritize, you remember information, very, you know, fact based, academic, you know, the thinking part of your, the left side of your brain. All of that. But then there's the right side, the emotional, the visual.

Why? Why is Instagram,  you know, exploded into the stratosphere the last 20 years? Because it's, it's visual, it's picture,  right? It's video.  it weren't, if, if that were not true, then Instagram  with Facebook. And then why does Facebook, you know, Facebook is, is image and video based. It's not really text based.

I mean, reads very few people read Facebook. They look at Facebook,

Yeah.

social media,  well as movies and TV are visually based. They're idea based. And brands are both  brands are a mixture of ideas and words and images and design and platforms, meaning websites and email and stores. And, you know, it's, it's situationally based, but it's also ecosystem.

Brands are ecosystems.  A lot of times a client or a prospect. trigger to reach out to someone like us is we

Right.

get it brands in the world. I don't make this up again. Starbucks.  We interact with Starbucks through their stores and their coffee and other things all the time and the website you barely go to or your app,

Right. Thanks.

important, but it's, it's a, it's a bolt on as opposed to the essence of it.

Well, That reality applies to any brand.  so we get a lot of, Oh, you know, we need help with the website. And I go, great, you know, happy to help you, but just so you understand, you have to step back to the websites here and think about all of this  will then come back to the website and be your front door.

No, nothing wrong with that. But you need to understand that in business to business, very few clients and prospects go to your website after the first interactions.  They moved on to other ways to understand you and interact with you,  they don't go back to the website. It's just not how things work. So we're happy to follow people where they think the need is a pain point. It's just that we think about it and deliver upon these ecosystem, brand is the everything kinds of ways to solve the problem. And it gets into lots of diverse  content.  again, Positioning, strategy, message, words, ideas, images, um, all of these things and then apply them into the ways in which you communicate, you know, through the sales funnel and,

Yeah,

and that balance of sales and marketing and, and communications. But that's what brands are. Brands are, they're three dimensional.

yeah, well, I love it. And I picked up some new ways to talk as, as being, you know, much more web focused, meaning like design development management only and not doing any of the other pieces that go around. It is amazing how many times people even come to us and say, like, we want to refresh and they're only thinking about their website and not about their brand or, or thinking they're going to get a brand through a website.

want to make a point. We are not, I'm not diminishing the centrality of website and we spend a lot of

No,

websites. So, so I'm, I'm being, I'm not being contradictory or I'm not trying to be exclusionary. It's just that, you know, our job is to make people step back and think about the whole, and then come back to the pieces.

yeah, yeah, no. And that's what I'm saying as well. Like I get into those conversations where people are asking for a website, asking for a rebrand via asking for a website,  and that's not necessarily the whole story. Um,

you know, our process is that we solve for the big picture. Who are you?  Who are your audiences? How do you address the individual's separate audiences? What are you gonna do for me? Why should I care? Why you?  help  client organizations think that way first. Wrap their arms around it.  Solve for the who are you? What are you gonna do for me? Why should I care?  And then we go build the stuff  the component tree. By the time we get into building complex websites, the, the building blocks have already been worked out. And then we just apply those building blocks into a website as a discreet thing, but,

you know,

the component trees already been worked out.

So there is a step by step way in which we attack this stuff, but we do spend a lot of our time working on websites. I love it. I mean, it's a website  developments. Cool. It's really fun.

Yeah, absolutely. That's why, that's why we exist, um, over here at Fjord. Uh, it is, it is fun. It can be challenging too, um, for people who don't do it that often and don't appreciate the, um, the effort and the ways that you need to think about everything from different angles, not just a single sheet of paper.

You know, Joe, just want to stop there for a second. You brought something really interesting that I don't want to overlook. The vast majority of our client organizations have never gone through a branding process. And so a certain amount of what we spend our time on is the how and the why. all the way through. They know they need it, but a very few have gone through it before.  And so know what to expect and how to participate. So we need to lead people through those dimensions of the end result, how you get there and, and what to expect. And, you know, again, in the world of black and white, there's gray and you're gonna have to, you know, kind of vote for gray and eventually turn into dark gray and, you know, all that stuff. And how you build consensus among people, a lot of  organizations with a lot of strong voices and getting consensus. So you're not paralyzed.  We end up advising people on the journey as well as the end result.

100 percent we, we rebranded completely. And I think it was probably 2014, 15 as a small company, but we used an agency cause we happen to know a lot of them and knew the value of it. And that was, I mean, never done it before. Haven't done it since. Um, you know, been part of rebranding exercises, but not led or been led for your own organization.

And it definitely is a process and not a. You know, uh, Oh yeah, we want this, go do it and be done. Um, so it was great. Glad we use that. And I totally agree. You need to educate and guide and trust, uh, from the client side. So, uh, one thing, Scott, I want to touch, we want to make sure that we touch on today is, you know, as we got to know each other, I learned that your agency does quite a bit of work in the private equity,

and

space.

And I want to make sure that we save some time to talk about.

And

came to be because I heard the story before and then what uniqueness is in that world and, and how do you deal with that or how do you have a plan of attack for those situations?

Sure.  um, in 1996, um, we got our first private equity client.  was wildly random. A neighbor worked with these guys who are leaving their, you know, sort of, uh, private credit, uh, uh,  company to create a separate company and said to me one day, Hey, these guys were leaving. They could be a client, you know, go pitch them, made the introduction.

We got the business  they came flying out of the gate and established their franchise, their brand pretty quickly. This is before websites. And I mean, it's 1996. I mean, cell phones are barely a thing. And websites were literally just starting. So, so, you know, how you  went to market and built a brand 1986 has like nothing to do with 2024,  but it took off right away.

And they ended up becoming one of the, uh, titans of, uh, private equity finance being the credit side of these deals.  They're called Anteres capital.  And we built the brand from scratch and they were a client for many, many, many years. Well, because they were very visible in public and they, you know, kind of challenged us to do some pretty adventurous work.  it was seen and people started knocking on the door, you know, Hey, who's does your stuff? And so our name sort of got passed around this tight  little network now in 1996. Private equity as a sector that we know today with trillions of dollars and thousands of firms and all this stuff did not exist.  It was very anecdotal in a few players.  Um, and it was, it was nascent now it's exploded.

Yep.

So, so we got catapulted into this tight little world of private equity firms that were doing this model 30 years ago.  And, and, you know,  got a critical mass of, uh, clients and understanding it took me a couple of years to figure out how private equity is because I'm, I'm not a finance guy, but we got that early kind of learning, uh, out of the way.

And so today our client count, and that's at world's 90 firms, you know, private equity firms, credit providers, big family wealth offices, and industry consultants.

1 of the interesting things about private equity is not only have we had a deep dive over decades. in this category, but the exploded over that timef people made a lot of mone  and create their own firm investors, pension funds, Saw this as an investment subcategory that you can make a ton of money. And people started to build big franchises, you know, Blackstone and Apollo, all these guys, and, you know, so, you know, Texas Pacific and Carlisle. And so it just took on life of its own. So today they're again,  don't know, three, 4, 000 firms,

Sure.

you know, trillions of dollars. And so the model of private equity, and I can probably summarize this in 30 seconds, um,  private equity firms will solicit investors  write them checks for 10, 20, 30, 50 million dollars.

And they get those kinds of big checks from many sources, and they create what's called a limited, uh, you know, partnership, an LP. may have, let's say, 600 million dollars. And with that capital,  are tasked with Um, taking pieces of it to buy usually control interest, meaning a majority of the stock into a private company or set of companies  and their goal is to scale and bring efficiency to those what's called a platform. know, um, an easy example is there's a lot of what's called roll ups right now. It's very hot model. These fractured markets, roofing services, that kind of stuff that are local yoga firms and regional firms and and there's an opportunity to make a bunch of money.  Buying and integrating them into a, into a bigger platform, bringing efficiencies of processes and software and, you know, buying of material and all these things to  take what previously had been, let's say a dozen companies. That were, you know, as profitable, but a much smaller scale and making a big thing and then packaging up and selling to somebody else, a bigger private equity firm or whatever.  between the cost of all that acquisition and integration,  you know, the cost basis along with your, your, your, your debt, I'm going to make this up, suppose it's a 300 million cost basis

Yep.

four or five years. When you go to package it and sell it, Down the road, maybe you sell it for 425 million or something like that based upon multiples of the profit.  that one 25 difference is what, why private equities exists. And they return a chunk of it to their investors, the pension funds, insurance companies, foundations, and then the partners keep, let's say a third of it.

I'm just making that up

Yeah.

And so the partners will  up. The 40 million of the difference. And you know, that's what they take home. It's called carried interest as opposed to a salary. Nobody works in private equity for a salary. They work for carried interest. It's how a lot of people get a super wealthy over 10 to 20 years in private equity and they can accumulate, you know, a hundred to 5 million each individual

Yeah.

over and over and over again.

That's the business of private equity.

Correct. Yeah. And so you've had an experience in branding those firms, and then even within that, branding the firms that they purchase, because that's part of the value that they add, correct?

Now, the branding need and situation skill set for doing brand work for a P. E. firm and doing brand work for the portfolio companies or the platforms completely different,

Correct.

different. You know, they're tied to hip,  they are extremely distinct. P. E. firms  You know, they suffer from being three degrees off of the death center and, and getting them to be, to understand and lean into their own people, their own culture, their own uniqueness  and agree upon that and amplify in a sophisticated way is, is often the need state to do work for them.

And we're, we're as good as they come in America and doing that. There are other great firms, but you know, we're a leader in America. And, and so, you know, it's like, you know, we, we little bit joke, there's different shades of vanilla. It's kind of, but it's important, but I'm just saying that's the, the, if you want to mess a model, it's different shades of vanilla.  needs for, for the portfolio companies are profoundly different because they are often the result of merger and acquisition work.

Mm hmm.

And together three to 25 companies into a thing.  And so  the big need there is brand strategy, brand architecture. What brand,  you know, framework do you pick? Is it a one unified brand? It is a holding company brand with a bunch of injured

Right.

brands are left alone. Is it some hybrid thereof  over how much time, how, if you're moving towards integrated whole, how much, how fast you have to deal with, you know, folks who sold their family business to the platform and they don't want their name to go away for a period of time, there were all of these complexities and personal.  systemic challenges that we are brought into advise on and manage and some of that managing is handholding. To be honest, that's not a bad thing. It's just the

Yeah.

and then build towards a unified and elevated. Whole, because a lot of these markets like roofing services, they're not sophisticated brand marketing  companies or his sectors.

Right.

the goal is to, you know, build a something that's going to be the bad boys in a kind of a unsophisticated, you know, category that we know how to do.  And, and that's part of the mission. So it is unbelievably fascinating work, but the other benefit is there's a lot of it. I mean, there's thousands, thousands, thousands. Of these private equity platforms and so there's a lot of, you know, it's a gigantic market that we're, you know, we're  weighing in on.

Well, and you're, you're so  You know, you, you have other experiences and I know you do other work, but it even leads to a podcast that you host and forgive me, I'm not looking at it right now, but what is the name of that podcast and how can people find it?

it is called Beer Stories for Private Equity.  And I'll, I'll come back to that in a second. Um, we were on Spotify and Apple usual platforms like

Sure.

Um, but you can go to monogram group. com and there's a, um,  a tab at the top. I think it's called insights and one dropdowns podcast, and they're all listed there.

You can, you can access them through our website.  Um, why beer stories for private equity?  You know, like you, I decided to create a platform for marketing purposes. And Frank, frankly, it's personal gratification because it's fun  and I've been a guest on the podcast over the last 3 years or so and, uh, thought, you know, I'm comfortable in this environment and it would be, you know, maybe a,  expansion of my skills to be a host and, you know, all, you know, upsize the table.  And, uh, so I gave it a go about a year and a half ago. And, um,  just said there are plenty of podcasts out there in private equity. If we can't have fun, if I can't have fun, you know, guests can't have fun. And there's a more conversational nature to it than just fact, fact, fact, fact, fact, I don't want to do it. And so I tried to think of a title For the metaphor, which is two guys sitting in a bar sharing beer stories, because I believe the purpose of life is that whoever accumulates the most beer stories when they die wins.  And so,  and so I, I brought that same mindset into the podcast series.

I love it. And especially in the private equity world where  You know, it's the old, like, money can't buy happiness, or you can't take your toys with you in the grave, or, you know, whatever it is. It's the beer store.

mean, as,

It's the beer store.

well, it regimented and serious as private equity folks are, there's a side of them that wants to, you know, escape from that and let their hair down and have fun while they're even talking to serious subjects. So I just was creating a venue for that and, you know, trying to Kaylee find people that have that side of them that could, you know, weigh in on a,  all this, that was interesting,  but that's like, it's just, I just want to have fun with this.

We literally on our, on our podcast at the one minute mark, we each bring out a beer, why'd you pick that beer? Blah, blah, blah.  then we're drinking like I wanted to make it as, as genuine as  possible. And then people love it.

So do you, do you offer times in the morning for your podcast? Or just in the late afternoon around happy hour when you're drinking beer?

It's a great question. And the answer is we usually record early afternoon. I mean, whenever someone's available is really the

Of course.

But I,  know, candidly, I'm not, I'm not looking to drink a beer  either. So we typically do in the afternoon.

Yeah, yeah. I figured. I, yeah, I can. Having one beer or two beers makes me tired. So, uh, it's not really a good, great start to the day. Um, so glad that I like the concept. I like, I like it. Like I told you, I'm going to listen to a couple of episodes, um, learn more about private equity and all of those things.

Uh, but Scott, unfortunately, that's all the time we have on have today on Mind Your Own Marketing Business. Podcast  reminder to our guests, a couple of places that you can find Scott and his team at monogram group is monogram group. com. You also can find links to his podcast there, but his podcast is called beer stories for private equity.

Uh, and again, Scott, thank you so much for joining us.

Joe, I really appreciate the opportunity. This was a lot of fun.

Absolutely. All right. And thank you to our listeners for  📍 joining us. You can download episodes of our program by going to fjords. com slash podcasts or subscribing to the show on iTunes, SoundCloud and Spotify.

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