Welcome to mind your own marketing business podcast, where we explore marketing trends and technology, gaining insider knowledge from the industry's best, you're just proud to present mind your own marketing business with host Joe Barsness.

 Thanks for joining us on the mind your own marketing business podcast. I'm Joe Barsanus from web and software development team Fjord. And today on our show, we'll be talking with Tom Browning from JLB and Partners. Welcome to the show, Tom.

Thanks for having me, Joe. I'm excited to be here.

For our listeners out there, uh, we are brand new into 2025. I know everybody has high expectations. It's a little chilly in Minneapolis and Chicago where Tom is. Um, but, uh, we're going to talk a little bit about.  and where he, how he came to be, what his organization does, and then kind of give you some tips and tricks in that area.

So, um, Tom, I always like to get a little bit of background. So first tell me a little bit about you and your team and kind of high level, what your organization and yourself does on a daily basis.

Yeah, great. Thanks, Joe. Um, so JLB and Partners is a global client agency relationship consultancy. Um, so what our role in the industry is, is to help our clients, that is marketers, um, get the most, um, out of their agency relationships and in turn, uh, work with the agencies to make sure that they know. Uh, what it will take to succeed with a given client.

And then also, um, we do a lot of work in agency compensation. And once again, that affects both parties, making sure that the client is getting a fair cost value for the agency fees. Uh, but importantly, uh, also that agencies are getting compensated fairly. Uh, for the effort and time that they put into a given account. Um, we have an old saying that says, you know, if a compensation agreement doesn't work for both parties, it actually works for neither. Because over the longterm, um, somebody is going to be dissatisfied and the relationship will also, uh, or ultimately come to a bitter end. Unfortunately. So, um, we work with our clients, help them find agency partners or help them optimize the relationship with their current agency partner.

Wonderful. Thank you for and tell me, where are you? Do you have a, an office location and, and how many employees and kind of the general setup of the organization?

Sure. Yeah, we're a small firm based in Chicago. However, we have a partnership model where we have close colleagues that we've worked with and, um, some cases for 10 or 15 years. Um, and those offices are located around the world, um, kind of where our clients would most likely need them. So we have a European office in London. We have a Singapore office. Uh, we have an office that serves Latin America out of Miami. Um, and then we also have a partner, um, for, uh, we're not a media auditor. Um, we will work on media agency searches, but if there's some in depth auditing of, uh, Media agency pricing. Uh, we bring in a partner called AMI and they're based in Denver.

So about five offices around the world, all told, um, you know, maybe 20 to 25 of us, uh, but the core team in Chicago is relatively small. There are six of us based here.

Got it. Got it. And, and  your high level role at the organization? Sure.

Yeah. So I'm the, um, president CEO. I'm actually the owner of the firm. Um, I got into this  what, uh, coming up on four years ago now, how time flies, right? Um, after 30 plus years on the agency business. So I worked as an account, um, executive account guy, as the saying goes, um, for  DDB, also JWT, some other, um, agencies, and then resigned from my last firm in March of 2021. And reached out to the then owner of JLB and Partners, a guy named, uh, Dave Beals. Um, Dave had owned JLB and Partners. In fact, he's the B in JLB.

Sure.

so he had owned it since the year 2000, but the firm actually goes back to 1972. So we've been around for 52 plus years at this point.  Um, Dave was at that point already looking towards his retirement and what he wanted to or how he wanted to set up the firm for sort of the future and his success and ask me if I'd be interested in joining JLB, um, taking a, um, an ownership position. And ultimately buying the firm from him. And so,  we set that all up and got the lawyers involved. It took

Sure.

the fall of 21 until we got the documents signed. And then,  I became the full owner early last year, uh, once he

Okay.

Kind of completed his obligations and gotten to the point where, as he liked to say, he was ready for my ties on the beach.

So, um, he's still, honestly, he's still a valued partner and a mentor. Um, and the occasional time where I don't know what to do, I'll shoot him an email and invariably he's replying in like 15 minutes. So I think, I think he needs to spend a little more time on the beach and away from his laptop because he's earned it.

Yeah, I like that. Put his Mai Tai down and get back to you.

Exactly.

Um, so let's jump into a little bit about, um, you know, I'm familiar somewhat with the, the, uh,  client agency relationship, but, and, and mostly with  searches on people on the own, like, Hey, I know this person, I'm going to submit a form over here. So what are the, the problems?

Uh, maybe let's start with from the client side.  Like what are the problems that you hear about when people are first reaching out to your firm like, hey, I want to use you. This is what I've experienced in the past. And what do you hear? And what do you talk to them about?

Yeah, so I think climate clients turn to us primarily. Um, first off, it's, it tends to be larger marketers,

Sure. Okay.

uh, much more modest fee, um, to help them find the right partner. And the reason they do that is because, um, you know, like I said, our firm has been doing this for 50 plus years, right? We've proven our value in the marketplace.  a couple of things that clients are looking for is one, um, You know, agencies that they might not be aware of.

So we have an industry expertise. We meet with agencies literally every day. Um, we, we see who are the, um, sort of the leading agencies are who are best for given situations. And our clients appreciate.  Seeing agency candidates that they wouldn't otherwise be aware of that actually might be more appropriate for their  organization and their particular business challenges at the time.  The other thing that they appreciate is that we have, um, kind of a proven process and it's pretty straightforward and not all that surprising. Um, but by going through the process, they get such a good understanding of those agency candidates that by the end of the process, they're really making an informed decision and are confident that they found the right partner for themselves. And then the last thing, um, I think we bring that is particularly important is that expertise and agency compensation. Um, so at the end of, um, a search process, the formal business, um, partnership is established and, uh, we're able to ensure, like I said at the outset, that the agency that they want to hire is affordable to them.  and, uh, We're able to help them negotiate the best cost value from that agency. And then ultimately we're also able to ensure that the agency that is, um, you know, getting that opportunity is going to be happy with the commercial proposal as well. Again, we're always making sure that these agreements, these partnerships

Got it. Got

both organizations are set up to succeed.

it. Yeah. Um, and, and let's flip that to, let's say I'm an agency. And number one, I'm sure the question I'm curious is like, how do I get on Tom's list? And I'm sure that's a question that everybody asks, but beyond that, what, what value bring value to that side as well? Let's talk about that for a little bit.

Yeah, sure. Um, you know, just a funny aside. First off, I did like I worked on the agency side for 30. Um, what would it be? 31 years. So  I have more experience on that side of the table

Sure.

on my on my current side. Um, but, um, I, I meet with agencies all the time, like I mentioned, um, and I'm always open to meeting new agencies that I wouldn't. Otherwise be aware of. So just reaching out to me, um, we're just chatting about this. You know, we've of course got a website with an intake form and you can fill that out and, and also shoot me an email and say, Hey, I'd like to talk and introduce you to my firm.  and, and I have those meetings quite often.

And then  once. You know, we've identified you or, um, sort of found that you could be a great candidate for a particular opportunity.  What we're going to do first is actually share that, um, what we call a long list with our clients. So once we get the client to articulate what they're looking for in an agency partner, that's when we go about doing our research, Joe.

And that's where, you know, that, that, First list comes in, if you will.  But before we even reach back out to those agencies and invite them, we review that list with the client. We say, these are the 15 to 20 agency candidates. We think you should be interested in learning more about.  then once they approve that list, then we'll send out an RFI request for information to each of those agencies that the client has approved.

So I think that's important because as an agency, If you do receive an RFI from JLB and Partners, you know that you've got kind of an initial level of interest from that client. Um, you've got something that caught their eye. That they're going to, um, and it gives you kind of a shot right out of the gate.

Yeah, and I imagine, like, they're already paying your organization to help find somebody so you can understand the seriousness of the request in that, like,

point, Joe. Um, I didn't mention that when you asked about, you know, kind of the value we bring to agencies and that might be the biggest one of all. So thank

sure,

for chiming in. If a client has hired us. There's a real opportunity.

right?

and I do hear from agencies quite often that they'll get  unquote, a new business opportunity or a chance to pitch.  the process will go on for nine months or a year. And at the end, nobody gets hired. Like there was nothing even there to start with. Well, to your point, if a client is serious enough to hire us and then they do pay us, we don't, we don't, um,  We don't make a contingency based on the fee. We don't, we never accept a contingency based on quote unquote, savings.

We provide,  work for a flat fee, you know, based on the scope of the project, just like agencies do. And once the client approves that they're paying that no matter what. So, uh, as an agency, you know, that it's a real opportunity. You're JLB is involved rather. Um, you can be assured that'll be a fair process.

You'll get the assistance and counsel you need to have the best shot you can.

Yeah. Um, and, and  as you go through kind of this matchmaking process, if you may. Um, what are you seeing? Like, what are some qualities in the approaches that I first I'm gonna start with the client side, like,  When you get a client and you're like these guys are gonna be great Like somebody's gonna be really excited to work with this Like what are the things that come to your mind in those situations?

That makes a client more attractive to an agency to work,

Yeah. There, there's a few things. Um, so at its broad level, um, You know, the, the client brand opportunity, you know, how the profile of the client, the budget agencies always look at the budget, how much can

of course

to make?  if it's a creative assignment, they look at the creative opportunity. You know, what's the challenge, how open are the clients to great creative ideas and, um, the chance to, you know, create great work that they know will benefit their agency as well.  Um, the, uh, you know, the culture, it, maybe it's an overused term, but I don't think so because it matters so much. Um, and the types of people that are, you know, open, clear, direct, ambitious, um, nice, are, are, are great thing as well.  then ultimately what I'll say to our clients is that you're going to get out of this process, what you put into it.

So, um, You know, the, the one term I don't like to use for our firm is a gatekeeper. Um, even though we serve as

Okay. Okay. Okay.

more engagement the client and the agency have together, especially when it comes down to the final four or final three.  That's going to give the client that much more confidence that they're hiring the right team. Um, and so of course, you know,  and frankly, I don't think, um,  it's a good agency practice to, to quote unquote be a pest, you know, and, and we're not going to want that for the agencies. We might counsel them to, to back off if need be, but that, that rarely happens.  Agencies are looking to do great work for clients. They need information and direction from clients to do it. And we hope to facilitate that process and put the two parties together in a meaningful way, in an efficient way. So the client can see the best work of the agencies and the agencies can put their best foot forward, best foot forward for the clients.

Yeah, do you, um, so thinking about it, so client side, you know, you've got to look attractive to your potential suitors as well, but there's a big thing here where the agency is really doing the quote unquote selling. Right? Um, so, you know, in that world, What are you seeing, um, in terms of the most important aspects of the new business approach?

Is it the overall strategy? Is it creative? Is it team? Is it chemistry? Is it the finances? What, and maybe all the above in different scenarios. Um, but like, talk a little bit about, about that side as well.

no, I actually had a great opportunity through the four a's last summer to talk on that very topic. Um, and what they requested was, you know, they wanted to call it the meeting after the meeting. How do clients really decide? Like, what should I focus on?  And the fact is the answer is yes. Right. It is all of those things. Um, but I think that the key point and the point I made in that talk was, it's all about relevance. Um, so the key for an agency to be the most relevant to what the client is looking for. Is to listen and to really interrogate that assignment to really, um, understand the client's business challenges, to hear about their, uh, ambitions for growth, their creative sensibilities, their desire for media innovation. The more you listen to what they're telling you and asking for, the more you can  tailor your approach to what they're looking for. And I think it's that. That tailored approach that provides the magic, right. That, that provides that chemistry. Um, and, um, I gave the example in that talk about  one of the, one of the factors that you mentioned and that, that, um, the four A's was interested in is like, how much does creative matter?  and I said, it matters a ton  it's relevant to the client. And the example I gave was, you know, a couple of the, you know, Historically, you know, the greatest commercials of all time, the Apple 1984, or, um, the,  the old Volkswagen lemon ad for, uh, VW.  and if an agency would bring those to a client. You know, they might look at the 1984 and say, you know what? We're not on TV and we're not looking to do a Superbowl ad. So that doesn't matter to me. Or they might look at the lemon ad and they say, you know, we've really gotten away from print. That doesn't matter to me. So greatness in and of itself  frankly, just not enough.

The clients are looking for  could be great for them. And for their business challenge. So that's really the key. And I think the best way to get there is by listening and doing your homework about their industry, about their particular situation and tailoring your pitch to what you can see that they really need.

You see, that is a contrast between, you know, and some of the strategies I've seen is, and obviously, I don't think this is breaking news or anything, but just want you to expand on it is like,  and this is an assumption of mine as well, because I wasn't in the agency pitch space or anything like that. But.

It used to be all about the agency. Like this is, we are the best, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And it seems like it's swing back to, we are the right agency for you. Like, have you seen changes like that? And is that one of them?

well, I, I think you're definitely getting my point of view too,

Yeah.

so there is the, I'd call it the Hollywood approach, right? You, you, you're lucky to be meeting with me. I'm the best of the best and, uh, here's my price. And that can certainly work on some clients. And I guess you could even apply that  principle.

If you have a client that, you know, wants to be famous.  Maybe that's the approach that you take. Um,  I'm just sharing sort of my experience, frankly, both on the agency side, pitching business, but then also what I see and working with my clients because we go through  take great pains to help clients fully articulate what they're looking for.

In an agency partner. In fact, we go as far as to create what we call an agency job description. So it's literally a document that the client  directs. We, we author it, but they kind of give us all the guts of it. Um, and it's literally a description of what their ideal agency partner.  So what capabilities do they have?

What are the characteristics that are important, um, to this particular client team?  once that's documented, first off again, from an agency standpoint,  you, you kind of can evaluate right away. Do you have a right to win, right? Are you, do you have  what this client is looking for  on the client side? It helps us keep them on track because there's twists and turns in every, Okay. Creative process. And frankly, this is, this is also a creative process where things change. There's no black and white. There's only shades of gray. And,

Yeah.

not changing course and changing direction and frankly, driving the agency candidates crazy with, with. Confused or, um, contradictory direction.

Yeah, 100%. Um,  I imagine, do you get, so  from my experience, we're not in the creative agency space, but our sales process is similar in the technology space. And. I actually tend to appreciate when there is a consultant involved. Now, I'm not typically dealing with somebody who's always looking for technology, but they might be hired by an organization to help find.

A person who can build an application or something like that. It's not really like one organization that i'm connected to but just people that come and do their search for on behalf of the organization I oftentimes appreciate that Because you can get real information you can get You know, is this, you know, are they motivated by that?

You can kind of, not only do you have the connection to this, but you have this, some, some sort of side conversations. Do you get some of that reaction as well from the agencies?

Yeah. It's a big, I think it's a big part of what we do. I've mentioned lately a couple of times that a big part of our role is helping the agency succeed.

Yeah.

we want them to have the best information possible so they know what's important to the client. And there might be an aspect of their team that they normally don't highlight.

And yet it's a huge. Motivator for this particular client. Well,  if our client doesn't know they have it, everybody loses, right? Because the client doesn't get to evaluate that, that great tool that a given partner would have.  then an agency doesn't get to put their best foot forward. And I always just think that's crucial part of the process.  the other thing, and just more of a pragmatic standpoint is this is what we do. You know,

Yeah.

hours a day, whereas it, and so we're very responsive, right? If, if an agency asks us a question, like we're responding, like. Frankly, almost right away. Whereas if the process is being led by a client who has, you know, another 10 hours that they're committed to their quote unquote day job,  I'm going to lapse and agencies don't get the timely feedback and all of a sudden they're moving on in a different direction and then they got to go back and it, you know, it just creates

A hundred percent.

So  we, we take. Great pride in that I worked on the agency side. A big part of my career was I was the global business director on McDonald's for DDB and McDonald's absolutely demands that level of responsiveness. So it's just ingrained in my psyche as far as how we, how we work and our whole team, um, you know, we're very senior, um, agency and client side marketers. Um, but we, you know, Are as responsive as the first year we got into the business, because it's just kind of how we've been trained and how we like to run our business. And we see  the importance of that in managing a process. And one last thing I want to share is that  at the mirror and conference  couple of years ago on a panel, and it wasn't our panel, but a different presenter was saying that 85 percent of pitches. Uh, agency reviews are conducted by the client and only 15 percent by consultants. And the, the overwhelming mood in the room was like, wow, I wish more were led by consultants, just like you were saying, because I know there's a prize at the end of this thing. I know there's somebody there responsible for the process.

That's trying to bring it to conclusion. And I know I'm going to get kind of clear and consistent direction because it's, again, it's what the consultant does.

Yeah. Yep.

to hear that. And I hope there are some clients in the room that heard it too.  Yeah,

appreciate, you know, the consultants typically have a better understanding from, from both sides about what the value is or the potential fees or the, you know, um, that sort of a, a piece as well. Uh, sometimes, Oh man, I didn't realize it was going to cost that much. And like you as Tom get to be, no, that's what the going rate is.

And like conversations over at that point, you know,

Yeah.

thing. And

without that, um, so first off we have industry benchmarks, so we know what

Yeah,

fair pricing.  then we also will work with agencies on why they're pricing it the way they are. And just as an example, in a brand new relationship, you may want to have a greater level of senior staff on the project.

Right. And so. A given agency's hourly rate might seem kind of high to a client and we're, and we're able to say, well, we think this is important for you. And here's why, you know, you want their best strategic thinking right at the outset to establish that foundation. And in the years, 2, 3 and beyond, you can kind of  that staffing mix and bring in a more reasonable hourly rate. Whereas if we're not providing that to the client, they would often just say, Hey, this seems too high. Can you

right.

And then it's just a.  instantly, uh, you know,  he said, she said type of, uh, they, they  disagreement instead of kind of the goal of getting to a, like I said, a mutually beneficial partnership.

Yeah. And there are, that's one example of probably, you know, there's probably 50 things like that, that you can add a ton of value and create a better process. And 10 of them come up on, you know, different 10 come up on every single one of them where it's like, man, I'm glad Tom was here to help us through that conversation because everybody's otherwise kind of blocking and not able to talk.

Yeah. You know, um, as clear about, you know, how that can add value. So no, I think that that's, that's,

at the, um, the outset of this, um, Julie Wenger is one of our senior consultants. She was a longtime marketer at McDonald's, uh, in us marketing, kind of the second chair to the CMO.  And when we were. I was already underway and she was deciding whether to join JLB with me. And, um, we were talking over coffee and just, we realized that in both of our careers, a big part of our job satisfaction has always come from just being helpful. You know, helping clients grow their business or helping the agencies do their best work. And I said, you know, we're not  in the, you know, sort of the main marketing industry anymore, but we still get to do that. And we still get what sparked it for me is that the client gratitude is still one of our biggest motivators, right?

It's, it's human nature. You want to be told, Hey, good job, Tom. And,  we, we get a lot of that and it makes it fun.

Oh, that's so cool. That's cool. Um,  unfortunately, Tom, great conversation, but that's all the time we have today. So thank you so much for joining me on the show.

Now, I appreciate the opportunity, Joe. It's been a fun conversation. I've appreciated getting to know you and your agency and  look forward to working together in the future.

Absolutely. So, uh, keys for, for Tom, so you can find him on LinkedIn, Tom Browning, um, and JLB and partners. The URL uh J  lbp.com.  Um, those that will also be in the show notes as well. And lastly, I wanna thank our listeners for joining us.  📍  📍 You can download episodes of our program by going to fjord.com/podcast or subscribing to the show on iTunes, SoundCloud, and Spotify.

‍