Thanks for joining us on the Mind Your Own Marketing Business Podcast. I'm Joe Barsanus from  web and software development team, Fjord. And today in our  show, we'll be talking with Ryan Mitchell from In The Flow. Welcome to the show, Ryan.

G'day Joe. How you doing? 

I'm doing great. And  if it's anything like my curiosity.   People may have already noticed that,  uh,  have an accent for us, those of us in the Midwest.

Where are you from, Ryan? 

So I, I was originally born in the States, right? But I moved to New Zealand when I was five. So I've  lived on the other side of the world and the corner  of the world, some would say for the past 25 years. Um, hence the accent. 

Wonderful, wonderful. Um,  next thing I want to know about you is   what in the flow  is. What is in the flow? Uh, what does it mean to you? What does it do for you? And, and, and, and what are you doing for others? Just kind of on a high level.

Yeah,  for sure. So like the concept of in the flow and where I got the name is like from flow state. And it's the concept of like, when you're in the flow state, things get easier. They don't feel  like they're hard or a challenge. Um,  you know, A lot of sports people get into it. Musicians get into it, business people get into it.

I've gotten into it before. And it's like a state that I think a lot of people want to achieve  where things flow. Um, so that, that was  kind of the basis of the name and what, what I do at in the flow is help digital agencies and consultants create their own wedge  so that they can, um, so that they can differentiate  themselves in a market that is arguably one of the most jam packed.

In today's day and age, which is digital services and consulting.  

How do you think that?  That industry,  this industry,  um, that I  happen to be in, uh,  came  to be that way. Was there an outside force? Is there a reason why it's jam packed with a ton of service providers? 

I, so if we were to rewind maybe 10, 15 years ago, it was a relatively  young market, there was still enough demand for the what,  you know, so the services, the writing, the code, the pushing, the pixel, the building, the ad campaigns, because they were relatively complex  things to do. We didn't have machines.

Doing  it for us. It was all based on a person knowing the ins and outs of a platform or a code base and then them  getting paid for it. But now  there's more  people that can do that because that knowledge is becoming commoditized. You know,  writing code is getting easier.   Designing things is getting easier.

Running ads is getting easier  because. There's been a lot of training that's gone into it. So more people know it and technology have made it a lot easier. So like ad  platforms, like ad accounts pretty much run themselves and Google  ads, you know, you've got, um, like the co pilots that help you write code.

You've got Figma, which is like. Makes  designing a lot easier so that the force of  technology and just the natural progression of a market has led us to where we're like, it's a lot more mature now. And when  it's mature, it's not necessarily like, what is the thing that is going to  be do it be done?

Because most people can do the thing. It's like, who's helping me do the thing, which is more important. 

Got it, got it. Oh, that's excellent perspective. Um, and thank you for sharing, 

Oh, good.

for  my own market. Uh, Now you're talking about, you know, years of experience.   You're talking about how you're  helping others in this industry.  That must mean that you have some sort of a background. 

Yes. 

how did you get to where you are today?

What have you done? What have you learned along the way? Um, to, to get to this point where you're now helping others. 

Yeah. So I started my first entrepreneurial journey. It has.   It was, I was 19 and it was a  failure. It was, I was trying to sell phone cases online. So whether I'd count that as   actually me trying or I tried, right. Um,   and then at the time I was in university and I dropped out because I thought  I don't need to learn these things to do what I want to do.

I was like an  accounting classes and information system classes, and it was just boring. So I just,   I dropped out and went into the sales force. So I was   selling things. I liked the concept of selling. Did that for two years. And then at  age 21,   20 or 21, I decided to go out on my own and actually started as an   it company.

So I was doing office three, six, five migrations  back when office three, six, five was a new thing. And. Yeah, you  know, and like migrating from pop three and IMF over  to three, six, five.  And over time,  I just kind of was listening to  what the demand was. And people started asking more and more for websites   or for ad campaigns.

Or, and I was,  I was hearing what they were saying. I didn't quite  know what to, how to do it yet. Like I had built websites,  but not nothing commercial. Um,  and then one day I just ripped the plaster off or  the bandaid off, as you'd say, on the other side of the world. And I  decided to build a website commercially.

And.  The first website  I ever built sucked. I'm just going to be honest. It was atrocious.   I only got paid pennies for it. So, you know, value exchange,   but during that time, you know, and that, so that was me for  the next five years, um, built that agency with my business partner.  You know, we grew it to a good, good size with a good team. 

And I was like kind of the lead architect behind the solutions.  Got  to a point where I, my vision for it was  different to my business partners, so we decided to part ways. So I sold that to him. And.   I started another one because I, I ensured that I  didn't get a strain of trade because that was my thing. I couldn't.

Not do  this. This was my, my jam.  So I   started another one that was called do good things. Um, during that time   we were positioned as a full service  agency. Uh, it was working well. I grew the  team, but it was, I was still like, I didn't really  want to build it. It just kind of happened in front of me. I was just like, well, I may as  well, people are asking for me.

I may as well   hire people to deliver. Website or an apple and  service line here and  I  just realized that there was. Like I started searching, I was like, surely there's another way  to do this. There's a better way to run an agency. That's not  just like be everything to everyone.  So   I was one signature away from selling do good things   as well.

And I didn't because of the golden  handcuffs. And it just wasn't aligned to what I wanted to do.   What I really wanted to do was do something different. I didn't  want to be the same as everyone else. So  I started  searching  and. I created a design and  development subscription on Webflow. Um, that was like a,  for a fixed monthly fee, we'll build your site and look, it worked, we scaled it to like 30,   35 K a month, give or take, um,   but.

It wasn't scalable. And we, I  actually further commoditized ourselves   by building a premise around price and speed. And I was like, well, I've tried  to change something. I did change something. I changed the  offer, but it still wasn't where I want it to be.  And then   I kind of realized that I had all this experience  and that people were asking me how they, how they could grow their agency.

And   the sales tactics and marketing tactics  and strategy. And  it was in front of me the whole time. I just couldn't see it. And it was   maybe I can help others.    And then that's where in the flow was born  

Wonderful. And how long has, has in the, when was in the flow born?  I

and the flow was born about a, about a year ago now, 

And we are just for reference, we are in October of 2024, in case those are listening,   um, uh, a while down the road. So,  wonderful. Oh, well, congratulations. Now,  in the first year,   how   do you feel like you,  have you learned,   on how to do that type of  work effectively? Compared to running an agency. 

Yeah. So there's definitely two different modalities here. There's   building it and doing it yourself and then teaching others how  to do it. And that was a pretty big limiting belief that I had  that going into running a  coaching program with, with other agency founders. And it was,  I can do it, but like, Can I teach it?

Is this  something that I can systemize and then teach to other people?   Um, and I was going to find out  one way or another and the first   two or three months was a grind.  Um, a lot of it is generating  demand because it is a  Relatively  new space, you know, that, that this whole thing's in where  it's like, instead of doing it's teaching, not done for you, I'd done  with you.

So the big challenge that I really  faced was generating the demand. Number  one, more demand than just the people that were already asking me.   And number two, having the confidence to be like,   to coach and train people and guide people, not  do it for them.  Cause I'm a roll  the sleeves up type of guy. Like I like getting stuck into things, but. 

In this scenario, this, that's not my, my job, my  job is to show people how to do it.  And if I  do too much for them, I'm essentially enabling them  to,  to not do the hard work themselves.   And  that's not what  I , that's not what I set out to do. I didn't set out to do it for them. I set out to show  them the way.

So that was, that was definitely the  hard, the hardest frame shift that I had   going into this, this whole  coaching training. Program. Yeah,

it.  And are there any,  are there any things that you can share   with? Cause we do have a, have a fair amount of  marketers and agencies that listen to this. Um, what,  what things have you noticed in that industry   and how to,  the right word is differentiate yourselves   from others, what have you been doing?

Kind of.   In that process or or with agencies is what are you learning from that? 

for sure. Like, and it all comes back to that, the   initial combo we had at the start of this pod, which was  like the context has shifted. So people who buy  digital services no longer want to pay a premium  for  tactical. Work that they believe they can  find out to it because there's things like fiber.

There's things like Upwork   there's GPT that does it now. So they don't want to pay. A  premium for someone to do the do per se.   So that leaves a big gap for agencies who have built their whole  model around tactical delivery. It's like, well, we've got a whole team  built on tactical delivery, but year over year,   the value of that tactical delivery is make, is, is   dropping.

So the margins that you make in it are dropping. So in order to shift,   it's to shift the frame away from   tactics and outputs into strategy and outcomes.   So instead of the.  Steps that you take to get there.  It's ensuring that you're pointing in the right direction in the first place, because there's a million   how to guides online.

It's not necessarily  the tactical steps that most people struggle with. It's like, is this guide the  right guide in the first place?  And a  lot of agencies have sold from the same playbook in a way that.  Used to work like you used to just be able to say run  ads,  run a, they ask you answer framework, do SEO, capture  the demand, and then you can sell to them.

But now that everyone does  it,  everyone's competing against each other. And the only way around that  is to build a wedge that  you drive into the market that separates you. And all  the other competition, because that distance  between you and the competition is essentially the buyer perception of, Oh,   you are different.

You're not just another  service provider. You are a strategic partner. That's going to get me an outcome of my business. 

And is that  is that?    am trying to tie That back to   the initial the market is crowded The you  know, and why it's crowded now does that  happen in other industries as well? In that  same is it a? A point in time where that happens do  you believe or is it just unique to this that particular industry? 

A lot of knowledge. It's a really good question. Um, and yeah, so it's a lot of   knowledge based businesses. So if you look at  accountants or lawyers or anyone who's selling conventionally sold Time  for money.  Is it being affected  by it? You know, if you look around, if you used to be a bookkeeper, now you've got things like zero  and fresh books that reconcile your books for you. 

So it's like, okay, as the accountant, what are you actually getting paid for? Well, you're not going to get  paid a premium to reconcile because of software, does it?   You're actually, you know, you're getting paid a premium to help guide the person.   The business owner into making the  right decisions in the first place.

And it's just a natural market curve of  as markets get more sophisticated and as technology starts  to add the deflationary  pressure onto the market, the tactics get cheaper,  but tools and AI can't replace  human thinking yet. So it's like. That's where we're at right now. Mm-Hmm. 

Yeah, I mean I can see that in the I mean from what I know in the car industry from the early  1900s  Henry  ford was making at a premium and you know, only the wealthiest had A vehicle.  And

Mm-Hmm.

think  about all of the automation and the relative price of a vehicle versus what  it does and how long it lasts and, and all of those  things.

And so now there's, I mean, this is a market that's even way more established than  anything

Mm-Hmm. 

about. Um, and, and I can just see how that's, that's starting to happen in that first phase, um,  Oh,  that's, that's very, that's very insightful   from, from that. Now, what have you seen when, when, when, when you're working with  organizations in this capacity and they're buying into what  you're, what you're saying and what you're recommending? What sort of Things have you seen come from them in a, in a  positive outcome? Like, have you seen some great results  or some encouraging, I know you're only a year into it, but, um, what have you been seeing and what are some of the success stories that you might have?

Yeah.  Absolutely. So the,  I mean, I guess the end  ultimate positive outcome is these agencies end up making more money. Right? Like, they make more money 'cause they can sell a market  effectively. That's like, that's, that's, that's the.  End goal for everyone that buys my service. They want to make close more deals in a way that's easier so that they don't have to be constantly trying to sell and pitch slapping people  on LinkedIn and like doing all these spammy tactics. 

They want it to be as smooth as possible. So yes. They make more money and they acquire more clients. More of the emotional things that I've noticed is clarity and in  the direction that they want to take. And this  comes off the back of a lot of agency founders. And I felt like this, this is where I can like tap into my past self and help guide them through it as    I didn't want to be just another service provider.

I  was actually like, I was so sick and tired of just being clumped in with everyone else  and just being another agency.  Right. Cause there's  thousands of them and a lot of buyers   have actually had very bad experiences with, with agencies. Right. So there's a bit of a taint on the industry and there's a bad taste in people's mouth.

And I noticed  that when I was, when I was positioned  as the classic agency,  people would just kind of have the, Oh, you're just that you're an agency. Oh, okay. All right. And  then they would try to just like.  Sweep me all the bad  work. They'd be like, Oh, you're an agency. Okay.  Well, can you just do all the bad jobs for us so we can focus on the other things?

And then like, I'll just find a way around the technical work. 

Yeah.

um,  it just wasn't fulfilling anymore. Like I was like, maybe I could build a  position around this, but like, it just, it  just wasn't where I wanted to go. Cause I want it to be something different. And I wanted to have a position that  was more authoritative.

And more respected  and, and, and listen to not just, uh, yeah, flip, flip, do good  things that the ad campaign and that they can build  or the, the landing page, cause they're just  the pixel pushes, not the strategic partners. 

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Now I'm going to flip the tables a little bit, Ryan. I  think you can handle this. Um,    if, if,  I were to go to your website, which I will name in a second,   What?  in, I'm assuming   you're applying some of the same tactics to your own    What is the wedge that you are  driving  to gain business with digital agencies? 

So that's a really good question, right? And it is  the,  I have to.  Practice what I preach, eat my own dog food. I have to lead by example  to, to, to prove that this thing works. Right.  So  my whole wedge is I help   agencies and consultants build an offer that makes buyers  want to work with them.  Cause normally it's the other way  around.

Normally the agency is very desperate to work with a buyer and the buyer's like   playing hard to get, you know, um, but there's actually  a way to build for demand. And the way I do that is by   assembling my own wedge. So I have identified a problem.   That agencies and consultants face, I have  created an offer that solves that problem.

And I have developed a point of view   on the problem that makes it all  come together. And  I  use LinkedIn and Reddit to deploy my point of  view  and  it works.   Right. I know there's a lot of,  there's,  there's mixed bat feelings in the B2B community about LinkedIn. Some people  love it. Some people hate it. I think it's a great platform.

If you actually have  something worthwhile talking about, if you're just going to be a clone  and copy and paste what everyone else is saying, then no, it's not going to  work, but if you have something genuine to say, which I believe I  do now, and by the way, it's taking me a while to refine all this  and get confident in it.

Um, but when it all clicked.   And I started to deploy it and I started to write about  it and I started to talk to people about it. It was   where everything came together. The wedge was assembled. It was in the  market. And I had drove a wedge between like  every other  agency coach  or consultant or sales consultant and what I do.  

Got it. Okay.  And no, I love it. You're, I mean, you do have to eat your own dog food and you definitely have. Um, 

It tastes, it tastes great by the way. It's not the dog food that you'd get from, uh, it's not the, it's not the cheap tier dog food. This is the premium class Wagyu beef. 

don't, don't we get some, like, don't we get a lot of like dairy from New Zealand and so it would be like that is, is that's like a thing down there,  right?

Yes, pretty sure to be like a two dairy, uh, which is a   different type of dairy, right? So that's another, so if we're  talking about reclassifying old things,  they  created a word called a two dairy and it is essentially  dairy that's slightly different and they've created a whole position around it. So it's like, it's, we're not normal dairy,  we're different dairy.

And the perception in the buyer's  mind is, Oh, that's New Zealand dairy. It must be good because it's a two. 

Amen.  All right, I've got,  uh, one more leading question for you.    when you're working with, uh, clients, digital agencies, and you're about  six months into your engagement and they're starting to see  some success,  with kind of the teachings. What, what   excites you about that? And, and,   and what do you tell that client about what's going to happen in the next six months? 

Yeah. So  the excitement. So I'm always going to frame. Yes. We all want to make more money. Right. And that's a pretty generic outcome that most  people talk about. Oh, I'll help you make more money. Whatever.  Cool. That does happen a lot and it is a valuable thing, but I like to get more on the emotional side and, and watch people  learn  this way of thinking.

And then when it clicks,  it's like they've had a. Like a positive existential crisis. They are got, they have gone. Wow.   The old lens of how I was looking at  things was so out of date, but they were so stuck that they didn't know how to move forward because of fear, because of the way things were because of just not knowing. 

So when I come in and I. Teach this is,  this is what really drives me to wake up every day and to help people is  when it all comes together and they see it for  themselves based on all the guidance I've given them. And  they're just like, I see it and I can see the future. I can see the vision of where I want to take this thing.

Let's start  like, and it takes some people get it straight away.   Sometimes it takes. Three months, you know, it's, it's, it's a process that can't be rushed and it's all in good time, but that is  like,  I wouldn't like that.  No amount of  money could replace that feeling that like we both get when we  find what their wages it's, it's a truly special thing. 

Cool. Well, now I'll connect the dots, Ryan, in that, um, we're about three to  four or five months into our engagement,   uh, with you. And we're kind of right on that precipice of like, Oh, I see it and I  can see the future.  I think  at this point, Uh, at least myself and some of my colleagues couldn't be more excited.

We're starting to, to bring some  more of it to both internally and externally at our  organization. Um, and, uh, that's why I asked you to be on the show just because I think  that you have a really good thing to offer and, and  some really good ways to talk about these things that are really going to help. Organizations like  ourselves and and anybody really that you work with,   you seem to just get it. And so, um, really appreciate you doing this and and and  jumping on and talking to to me and and,  uh, dealing with the questions that I had that referred to our own,  uh,  our own work together. So that was that was really fun.  Um, is there any other advice that you wanted to get across or things that you wanted to talk about? 

Yeah. Like maybe not necessarily  talking points, but I'll just, I'll just leave everyone with this. It's   we're at a turning point with digital  services and we're seeing it happen right in front of our eyes. The context has shifted. People can do tactics.   And generate outputs using  Upwork, Fiverr and AI.  The only way out of that, what I call the tactical trap is  to shift the frame into strategic   outcomes.

And, and strategy and lead the people that you're working with and point them in the right direction   first, and then deliver the tactics.  Not to say don't do the thing, but it's to say, lead with the strategy and lead with showing them their problems and how they can  be guided through this path of uncertainty.

Cause  all businesses want, all people want is a problem solved. If you can show that you understand their problem and you can show them what the future looks like without  it. Use that as your wedge in, and  then if they need tactical delivery, you can deliver it because you've built a position that is more authoritative in their mind   because you're showing them the problems and guiding them through  the way.

And then you've got more leverage to deliver the tactical, the tactical tasks  on the back end. 

Love it. Love it. And that's a lot about what we've been talking about. And thanks for summing it up  so,  so succinctly. I, uh, I  really appreciate that. So, um, unfortunately, Ryan, that's all the time we have, uh,   for today on Mind Your Own Marketing Business.  Uh, if you are interested in finding Ryan, what I mentioned, his website, now we're going to go all  look for his wedge. Um, at  intheflow. nz,  or nz, 

Depending on where you're at in the world.

yeah, depending on what half of the world you're on, um,  and or find him on LinkedIn by  looking for Ryan Mitchell and in the flow.   Um, And thank you to our listeners for joining us. You  can download episodes of our program by going to fjords.  📍 com slash mind  your own marketing business, or by subscribing to the show and  iTunes, SoundCloud, and Spotify.

Thanks so much again, Ryan. Loved having you on the show.

Cheers. Thanks, Joe.

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